Reminder and Agenda for Confidential Storage Spec Call - Mar 11, 2021
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Dear all, This is a reminder that the DIF / CCG Secure Data Storage Working group weekly call will be happening on Thursday at 4pm Eastern / 1pm Pacific / 22:00 CEST. Meeting link: https://us02web.zoom.us/j/84828031746?pwd=V0xGTnJ2Zm15RHlSRFpNTlRPQzdLUT09 Specification: https://identity.foundation/confidential-storage/ Specification repository: https://github.com/decentralized-identity/confidential-storage Audio recordings and transcripts of previous meetings: https://dif.groups.io/g/sds-wg/wiki/19633 As always, the IPR policy requires that you can only make substantive contributions if you sign the IPR Release Form. Please follow the instructions at https://dif.groups.io/g/sds-wg/wiki/Home Confidential Storage Spec Call Agenda 1. IPR Reminder 3. Review ‘Division of Responsibilities between Hubs and EDVs’ list, call for objections or additions.2. Introductions and Re-Introductions Proposed list so far: https://hackmd.io/qClYLUPkQ7uf0r3_4O7BUQ 4. Issue review Thank you, The Chairs |
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RE: 3. Review ‘Division of Responsibilities between Hubs and EDVs’ list, call for objections or additions. Proposed list so far: https://hackmd.io/qClYLUPkQ7uf0r3_4O7BUQ
Dimitri and WG colleagues,
I’d like to suggest either before tomorrow’s SDS WG call or, as an early part of the call, that we establish a few things we don’t have:
Without the above, I believe it is difficult (impossible) to continue with agenda item #3 with any additional depth. After completing a description of the lengthy Distributed Twitter (Dewitter) app scenario, I know what an EDV is but I didn’t need and don’t expect to need anything called a Hub. I have no idea what a Hub is or if the Hub concept is even needed.
To facilitate this discussion, can someone (e.g. @DanielB) take a stab at drawing a boundary what might be considered to be an [Identity] Hub? I’ve attached the PPTX source slide as well as a rendered image (below).
Is this a reasonable request? Can we agree to precede the agenda item #3 discussion with an initial determination of these 2 definitions: EDVs and [Identity] Hubs?
Best regards, Michael
From: sds-wg@... <sds-wg@...>
On Behalf Of Dmitri Zagidulin
Dear all,
1. IPR Reminder 3. Review ‘Division of Responsibilities between Hubs and EDVs’ list, call for objections or additions. Proposed list so far: https://hackmd.io/qClYLUPkQ7uf0r3_4O7BUQ 4. Issue review
Thank you, The Chairs |
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Thanks, Neil. I envision identity hubs as the digital equivalent of “The City of Atlantis”. It is the developer’s utopia where my app is both hosted for free and self-sovereign. I am not being sarcastic. Hosted confidential storage, like an EDV, is just storage. Identity personas and apps are conceptually agents, meaning code execution as well as storage. A Solid pod, for example, has storage as well as app plugins. Depending on where and how the pod is hosted (in digital Atlantis) it might be self-sovereign or not. My iPhone is also an identity hub. It is decidedly not self-sovereign. The app store hosts only censored code. The connectivity is anything but anonymous. My surveillance is both constant and opaque. Even so, I am “happy” to pay Apple and AT&T well over $1,000 / year for hosting my identity hub. IMHO, taking up identity hubs in a storage workgroup may be allowed under our charter but it is overreach. Nonetheless, I am happy to engage with the working group and will approach it from the perspective of self-sovereign hosting of my persona. Adrian On Thu, Mar 11, 2021 at 3:08 AM Neil Thomson <neil.thomson@...> wrote:
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RE: It is the developer’s utopia where my app is both hosted for free and self-sovereign. … Hosted confidential storage, like an EDV, is just storage.
NOTE: The following discussion is tangential to the “what is an [Identity] Hub?” discussion but it is worth clarifying the following…
In what I’ve documented as a “fully decentralized Twitter” (Dewitter) app scenario (95% of the document), there is no hosted storage at all …everything runs on Alice’s Phone, Alice’s Laptop, Bob’s Phone, or Carol’s Tablet.
There is one page near the end of the whitepaper, an architecture variation, called the “distributed Twitter” (Distwitter) app scenario where centralized server (clusters) are added to the mix but then the app scenario is no longer fully decentralized.
If we’re truly talking about Decentralized Twitter per @DanielB’s shoutout, there are no centralized servers in the Dewitter primary app scenario.
Best wishes, Michael
p.s. Still waiting for feedback from @jack on the whole Dewitter idea
😉:
From: sds-wg@... <sds-wg@...>
On Behalf Of Adrian Gropper
Thanks, Neil.
I envision identity hubs as the digital equivalent of “The City of Atlantis”. It is the developer’s utopia where my app is both hosted for free and self-sovereign.
I am not being sarcastic. Hosted confidential storage, like an EDV, is just storage. Identity personas and apps are conceptually agents, meaning code execution as well as storage. A Solid pod, for example, has storage as well as app plugins. Depending on where and how the pod is hosted (in digital Atlantis) it might be self-sovereign or not.
My iPhone is also an identity hub. It is decidedly not self-sovereign. The app store hosts only censored code. The connectivity is anything but anonymous. My surveillance is both constant and opaque. Even so, I am “happy” to pay Apple and AT&T well over $1,000 / year for hosting my identity hub.
IMHO, taking up identity hubs in a storage workgroup may be allowed under our charter but it is overreach. Nonetheless, I am happy to engage with the working group and will approach it from the perspective of self-sovereign hosting of my persona.
Adrian
On Thu, Mar 11, 2021 at 3:08 AM Neil Thomson <neil.thomson@...> wrote:
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Manu Sporny
On 3/11/21 6:20 AM, Michael Herman (Trusted Digital Web) wrote:
If we’re truly talking about Decentralized Twitter per @DanielB’sEDVs do not have to be hosted on an Internet server somewhere. They can be local to the device, local to the network, or local to a geolocation (e.g., available over Bluetooth). Just because we haven't defined the native or Bluetooth APIs yet, don't assume that HTTP is the only way of getting access to EDVs. :) -- manu -- Manu Sporny - https://www.linkedin.com/in/manusporny/ Founder/CEO - Digital Bazaar, Inc. blog: Veres One Decentralized Identifier Blockchain Launches https://tinyurl.com/veres-one-launches |
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As Dewitter use case 23 states,
23. Because of the fully decentralized focus of the Dewitter platform, Alice’s personal Agent and Alice’s Local EDV Server Instance are naturally co-located (deployed) on the same device (e.g. either Alice’s smartphone or laptop) as illustrated in the diagram below. a. Alice’s Agent talks directly to Alice’s Local EDV Server Instance directly via the Layer B EDV Trusted Content Storage Services API – not via one of the Layer B Trusted Content Storage Service remote access service endpoints (e.g. HTTP). b. The Layer B EDV Trusted Content Storage Services, in turn, talks directly to the Layer A Trusted Content Storage Kernel; which, in turn, talks directly to the EDV Microkernel. c. The EDV Microkernel manages all access and operations against each of the attached EDV Data Vaults.
So the Dewitter requirement is different from what you stated Manu.
Michael.
-----Original Message-----
From: sds-wg@... <sds-wg@...> On Behalf Of Manu Sporny Sent: March 11, 2021 8:49 AM To: sds-wg@...; Neil Thomson <neil.thomson@...>; Adrian Gropper (agropper@...) <agropper@...>; Daniel Buchner <daniel.buchner@...> Cc: Credentials Community Group <public-credentials@...>; sds-wg@dif.groups.io Subject: Re: [sds-wg] Reminder and Agenda for Confidential Storage Spec Call - Mar 11, 2021
On 3/11/21 6:20 AM, Michael Herman (Trusted Digital Web) wrote: > If we’re truly talking about Decentralized Twitter per @DanielB’s > shoutout, there are no centralized servers in the Dewitter primary app > scenario.
EDVs do not have to be hosted on an Internet server somewhere. They can be local to the device, local to the network, or local to a geolocation (e.g., available over Bluetooth).
Just because we haven't defined the native or Bluetooth APIs yet, don't assume that HTTP is the only way of getting access to EDVs. :)
-- manu
-- Manu Sporny - https://www.linkedin.com/in/manusporny/ Founder/CEO - Digital Bazaar, Inc. blog: Veres One Decentralized Identifier Blockchain Launches https://tinyurl.com/veres-one-launches
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p.s. From a workflow perspective, below is the mental model I have in mind …at least for the time being.
Any objections across the WG?
Michael
From: sds-wg@... <sds-wg@...>
On Behalf Of Michael Herman (Trusted Digital Web)
As Dewitter use case 23 states,
23. Because of the fully decentralized focus of the Dewitter platform, Alice’s personal Agent and Alice’s Local EDV Server Instance are naturally co-located (deployed) on the same device (e.g. either Alice’s smartphone or laptop) as illustrated in the diagram below. a. Alice’s Agent talks directly to Alice’s Local EDV Server Instance directly via the Layer B EDV Trusted Content Storage Services API – not via one of the Layer B Trusted Content Storage Service remote access service endpoints (e.g. HTTP). b. The Layer B EDV Trusted Content Storage Services, in turn, talks directly to the Layer A Trusted Content Storage Kernel; which, in turn, talks directly to the EDV Microkernel. c. The EDV Microkernel manages all access and operations against each of the attached EDV Data Vaults.
So the Dewitter requirement is different from what you stated Manu.
Michael.
-----Original Message-----
From: sds-wg@... <sds-wg@...> On Behalf Of Manu Sporny Sent: March 11, 2021 8:49 AM To: sds-wg@...; Neil Thomson <neil.thomson@...>; Adrian Gropper (agropper@...) <agropper@...>; Daniel Buchner <daniel.buchner@...> Cc: Credentials Community Group <public-credentials@...>; sds-wg@dif.groups.io Subject: Re: [sds-wg] Reminder and Agenda for Confidential Storage Spec Call - Mar 11, 2021
On 3/11/21 6:20 AM, Michael Herman (Trusted Digital Web) wrote: > If we’re truly talking about Decentralized Twitter per @DanielB’s > shoutout, there are no centralized servers in the Dewitter primary app > scenario.
EDVs do not have to be hosted on an Internet server somewhere. They can be local to the device, local to the network, or local to a geolocation (e.g., available over Bluetooth).
Just because we haven't defined the native or Bluetooth APIs yet, don't assume that HTTP is the only way of getting access to EDVs. :)
-- manu
-- Manu Sporny - https://www.linkedin.com/in/manusporny/ Founder/CEO - Digital Bazaar, Inc. blog: Veres One Decentralized Identifier Blockchain Launches https://tinyurl.com/veres-one-launches
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As input to the discussion of [data] hub vs. the EDV sub-system [secure data} services:
I’d suggest that the expectations I’m hearing across working groups (DIF, ToIP,…) on “data hubs” is that it is a basket of distributed data services packaged as a single point of contact for an organization (about their data) that includes, but is not limited to the following:
Such a collection of data services is being promoted by several (not yet SSI/ZKP) offerings/solutions of “data hub” services and applications.
What differentiates that for SSI based Secured Data Services is: standards for ZKP/encryptically secured data hubs.
Thank you, Neil Thomson
From: sds-wg@... [mailto:sds-wg@...] On Behalf Of Michael Herman (Trusted Digital Web)
Sent: March-10-21 7:27 PM To: sds-wg@...; sds-wg@dif.groups.io; Credentials Community Group <public-credentials@...> Subject: Re: [sds-wg] Reminder and Agenda for Confidential Storage Spec Call - Mar 11, 2021
RE: 3. Review ‘Division of Responsibilities between Hubs and EDVs’ list, call for objections or additions. Proposed list so far: https://hackmd.io/qClYLUPkQ7uf0r3_4O7BUQ
Dimitri and WG colleagues,
I’d like to suggest either before tomorrow’s SDS WG call or, as an early part of the call, that we establish a few things we don’t have:
Without the above, I believe it is difficult (impossible) to continue with agenda item #3 with any additional depth. After completing a description of the lengthy Distributed Twitter (Dewitter) app scenario, I know what an EDV is but I didn’t need and don’t expect to need anything called a Hub. I have no idea what a Hub is or if the Hub concept is even needed.
To facilitate this discussion, can someone (e.g. @DanielB) take a stab at drawing a boundary what might be considered to be an [Identity] Hub? I’ve attached the PPTX source slide as well as a rendered image (below).
Is this a reasonable request? Can we agree to precede the agenda item #3 discussion with an initial determination of these 2 definitions: EDVs and [Identity] Hubs?
Best regards, Michael
From: sds-wg@... <sds-wg@...> On Behalf Of Dmitri Zagidulin
Dear all,
1. IPR Reminder 3. Review ‘Division of Responsibilities between Hubs and EDVs’ list, call for objections or additions. Proposed list so far: https://hackmd.io/qClYLUPkQ7uf0r3_4O7BUQ 4. Issue review
Thank you, The Chairs |
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I’ve translated the Dewitter app scenario document into a more concise Dewitter Platform Requirements List document. You can find a copy here:
I’ve appended the requirements to the working copy on our Google drive.
I’ve also updated the workflow for what I perceive is our requirements workflow (see below). I haven’t received any objections.
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Dimitri, the Zoom link is invalid.
From: sds-wg@... <sds-wg@...>
On Behalf Of Dmitri Zagidulin
Dear all,
1. IPR Reminder 3. Review ‘Division of Responsibilities between Hubs and EDVs’ list, call for objections or additions. Proposed list so far: https://hackmd.io/qClYLUPkQ7uf0r3_4O7BUQ 4. Issue review
Thank you, The Chairs |
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Hi all, apologies for the confusion, the Zoom meeting link is now:
On Mon, Mar 8, 2021 at 9:58 PM Dmitri Zagidulin <dzagidulin@...> wrote:
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